Are We Even Playing the Same Game, Here?

From the tail end of a discussion at Vox Day:

jay c, He denies the Fact that Salvation was nailed to the cross and says so here on a regular basisI’m not sure what that means. If you are saying that our salvation was enabled by the cross, then I agree with that, and I think Mark does too. Without the cross, there would be no salvation for anyone. I’m sure that Mark believes that “the handwriting of ordinances that were against us” were nailed to the cross, although I suspect he does not understand that the same way you do.I’m not sure what that means. If you are saying that our salvation was enabled by the cross, then I agree with that, and I think Mark does too. Without the cross, there would be no salvation for anyone. I’m sure that Mark believes that “the handwriting of ordinances that were against us” were nailed to the cross, although I suspect he does not understand that the same way you do.I love his cursing rants around Christmas and Easter

I’m not sure what that means. If you are saying that our salvation was enabled by the cross, then I agree with that, and I think Mark does too. Without the cross, there would be no salvation for anyone. I’m sure that Mark believes that “the handwriting of ordinances that were against us” were nailed to the cross, although I suspect he does not understand that the same way you do.God was pretty clear when he said, “Don’t do the things the pagans do, while saying you’re doing it to me.” I can see how you might think that doesn’t apply to you. A lot of very smart people agree with you, but I don’t, and Mark doesn’t. Since God also says that we are guilty if our neighbor sins because we didn’t warn him, can you really blame Mark for coming back to these same points again and again? Well, maybe you don’t think that applies to you either, I don’t know.

I asked him a direct question a couple of months ago , if you were Saved by Grace or Law he said neither, and started with his bloviating about he doesn’t like be asked Yes or No implying that it’s argumentally- worded ( big surprise )and an either/or question and he’s not gonna go there .

I don’t remember the specific instance, but based on what I’ve seen here, I can understand his response. You don’t seem to be very interested in what Mark has to say, but only in what you want Mark to be saying. You spend so much time trying to manipulate the rules and then you blame him for not wanting to play your game. These kinds of arguments always seem to follow the same pattern:

M: “God wants us to obey his laws.”
A: “You want us all to stone our children?”
M: “No. I think God wants us to obey his laws.”
A: “I knew it! You want us to kill our kids plus anyone who heals on the sabbath.”

I’m not interested in playing that game either. The wind doesn’t have ears.

I’ll tell you it’s God’s Sovereign Grace and it alone . I really don’t like when people who call themselves Christians ( or Messianics as you call yourselves ) deny the Cross of Christ Jesus and him crucified . And God doesn’t like it either , says so all over the New Testament.

I’ve met a few–and only a very few–Messianics who believe you have to obey the law completely in order to be saved. (We’ll leave exactly what “saved” means for another day.) Mark is certainly not one of those. I can’t tell you exactly what Mark believes, because I’m not Mark. Instead, I’ll tell you what I believe. I believe that there is no set of rules you can follow to be saved. There is no magic prayer, sounds, or belief either. Here it is, and it’s pretty simple: You have to acknowledge that you cannot save yourself no matter what you do, you have to appeal to God’s mercy, and you have to commit to obedience. (Note that commitment to a course of action does not imply a flawless or even moderately accurate execution.) Even then, none of that stuff actually saves you. Our salvation is solely at God’s discretion. Our only option is to throw ourselves on his mercy in faith that he keeps his promises.

And him emphatically promotes Known charlatans and cultists Like ex TWI cultists like Michael Rood , an absolute fraud and a damned to hell False Prophet .

I’ve never known Mark to emphatically promote anyone but Jesus. He has cited Rood among others, and he has defended Rood against attacks. That’s not the same as promotion. I’m not a big fan of Rood myself, but it does seem a little unfair to call someone a false prophet for getting a prediction wrong. Prophecy isn’t just telling the future. It’s conveying a direct message from God. If Rood claimed that God told him such and such would happen and then it didn’t, well, then I agree that he’s a false prophet. I’m not aware of that happening, and I’m not interested in hearing about it, either.

His meltdown is going on as we speak . You don’t give support or money to this guy, do you?

Mark or Rood? I’ve never known Mark to ask anyone for money, and I’ve never given any to Rood.

I appreciate you having a dialogue with me jayc, unlike your friend that will duck, weave, avoid answering questions when asked, ( which violate house rules here, just ask VD or Spacebunny ) or give long drawed out non-answer.

Well, you already know my thoughts on that. Sometimes Mark’s answers are deliberately indirect to get you thinking. That might be a hangover from his years as a radio talk show host. I know that gets kind of irritating sometimes, but at least he’s following the pattern of someone we all respect. If you asked an honestly direct question, then I don’t doubt Mark would give you a more direct answer. I’m not saying that you are being deliberately dishonest, but I think you have already made up your mind what Mark’s answers are supposed to be, and you won’t believe anything else he says. Given that premise, Mark can’t win no matter what he says, so he wisely chooses to play a different game.

I really want you to know I don’t anything against you , or Mark, rory or Crystal , but I do have a problem with bad or abberant teaching . Like I said , this is serious business , and your eternal life depends on it . Shalom, and may God richly bless you and yours.
Fred X | 11.21.07 – 8:34 pm | #

I appreciate that, but, no, my eternal life does not depend on it. This appears to be an argument about how to walk out our salvation, not about how to obtain it. Maybe that’s the root of the misunderstanding.

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30 Responses to Are We Even Playing the Same Game, Here?

  1. Fred X says:

    First off, let me say greetings and I pray the Lord to bless you and your house , as well as all others who frequent here . You seem to be a pretty straight up man , and I do appreciate that in this day and age ,where frauds, slow bellys and hucksters abound in the 50 plus years that I have been on ths orb.
    , I am witnessing the “Falling away ” big time . Would you like me to help you to understand what Jesus Christ purchased for you on the Cross , Brother, I will help you , If you will allow me .
    Much Love and prayers unto you ,
    Shalom,
    Praise be to the allmighty God that IS my rod and my staff.

  2. Mark Call says:

    Very well done, Jay, and thank you for being far more charitable than I would have been (or was, since I did compose a response to his ‘distortions’, citing specifics). Principled disagreements among brethren can be very valuable, as “iron sharpening iron”; this was unfortunately no such thing.
    I will admit that his “cultist” mantra sounds more like Janet Reno than a Bible believer.
    And while you did take it upon yourself to indicate “what Mark believes” (or doesn’t) in a few instances, you not only did so based on facts, but in good faith.
    And I did answer his “witness to Jews” question directly, and at length. What then followed led me to conclude the question was emphatically not honest.
    So I will cite only the most grievous example:
    [MC] denies the Fact that Salvation was nailed to the cross and says so here on a regular basis
    I would challenge such a false claim with “produce a citation”!
    What I DO, however, is to “rebuke”, FROM Scripture, those who teach the falsehood that “the Law” was “nailed to the cross”. Words mean things, and such twisting is not acceptable, and not “honest”.
    Your summary was also diplomatic, Jay.
    The “aberrant teaching” about which I have expressed concern is addressed
    by the Savior starting in Matthew 5:17. Even so, being “least in the kingdom” is not to be confused with hearing Him say, “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matt. 7:23, but the whole passage is unequivocal.)
    I think we both understand what that word “iniquity” means, Jay – even if some might dissemble the meaning there, too.
    The original thread on VP started as a discussion concerning slavery in the Bible, about what it means to be obedient to Him; what our “reasonable service” is. I have a hard time believing that one could expect to hear, “well done, good and faithful servant”, without being willing to do as He says.

  3. Fred X says:

    Mark , hebrews 12 : 8, this verse describes you to a tee, you spiritual bereft Bastard
    I’m fixing to expose you for what you are , a week – kneed spiritually bereft bastard . Gird your loins , Badass . LET’S roll.

  4. Fred X says:

    The BIBLE tells me to mark you for your offenses , Call , deal with it , or eat it , I frankly don’t care .

  5. jay c says:

    I edited your last comment, Fred. Please, keep the name calling within something resembling Christian bounds. Remember your own citation of Jesus’ statement about what comes out of a man being the true source of defilement.

  6. Mark Call says:

    That same verse has occurred to me multiple times in dealing with this self-appointed “representative” of “Jesus Christ” who teaches disobedience to Yeshua HaMashiach, Jay.
    I do think it bears repeating, since I will note that I signed my final post directed at him as Mark 7:20:
    And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

    Those fruits are obvious, unfortunately, and do not require the gift of discernment of spirits to recognize.
    I have written nothing to or for him without prayerful consideration, since noting the admonition in Luke 9:5.
    As you are aware, Jay, neither of us shy from an edifying debate, nor do we fail to make a consistent case for good-faith efforts to do His will, from His Word.
    I will continue to do that, but only as directed by the Ruach HaKodesh. The counsel of both Proverbs 14:16 and 15:5 seem to be good guidelines for me to point out here; I will make no responses to any hate-filled posts, since their source is undeniable, nor will I respond to comments which ignore the Word of God, or which belie the fact that the spirit being channeled has not even bothered to read the post, much less the citation.
    This “coward” not only speaks the Truth “boldly” from His Word, but I post under my own name, and in His.
    My search for the text of Hebrews 4:12 led me first to Rev. 2:12, which seemed even more apropos for those who invoke the “Name of Jesus” but “do not do as” He says. Whether or not the God-breathed spirit which dwelleth in the man who now signs his name with an “X” is teachable is the key, I contend, Jay.
    You, of course, should be led as you are directed. But I will no longer respond to lashon hora. I would challenge him to study and respond to Rev. 2:14, as our Savior challenges each of us, and will respond IF, and ONLY IF such an exchange is for His glory, and in accord with the direction of His Word.

  7. Fred X says:

    Agreed, and much apologies to you and the others here .

  8. Fred X says:

    O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you ?
    Still praying for you all here .
    Shalom.

  9. Fred X says:

    ” Instead, I’ll tell you what I believe. I believe that there is no set of rules you can follow to be saved. There is no magic prayer, sounds, or belief either. Here it is, and it’s pretty simple: You have to acknowledge that you cannot save yourself no matter what you do, you have to appeal to God’s mercy, and you have to commit to obedience. (Note that commitment to a course of action does not imply a flawless or even moderately accurate execution.) Even then, none of that stuff actually saves you. Our salvation is solely at God’s discretion. Our only option is to throw ourselves on his mercy in faith that he keeps his promises. “- jay c
    And I agree with you 100 % , and that’s exactly the point I’m trying to make and I could not have done any better. Amen, brother ! You, my friend have definetely got a grip on it . Praise God !
    If that was what Mark was saying, I wouldn’t have any problem whatsoever with him at all . God is not sitting up in heaven , wringing his hand’s waiting on you to ” do something ” . like ” saving yourself ” ( which you can’t do, ) or ” keeping the Law” ,( which you also can’t do , or even attempting to keep Laws that you know you can’t do either,) and you are honest enough to say so . And to tell others that they need to or suggest such the like as a condition for salvation ( And Mark has done so , as loudly and as often as possible ) smacks and reeks of vainglorious hypocrisy . And the excuse of not wanting to give the Gospels to Jews because ” it’s hard to to convince knowledgeable Torah observant Jews that Jesus Christ was and is the Messiah . ” is outright lazy and lame . And more hypocrisy, as this goes strictly against the Great Commission .( Matthew 28: 18-20 ) It’s a good thing Jesus and his disciples didn’t see it Mark’s way . You see, I do not have any thing against Messianic Judaism or those who practice it or believe in it . I’d fight right alongside you to defend your right to do so. And believe me when I say that . I do not desire confrontation , but profitable discussion . Mark hasn’t showed me ever that he has desired that, with me or others over at VP ; in the past or the present . because he is far to much into into using the scriptures ” Way” (as in TWI.) out of context, ( probably due to listening to Mike Rood , a notoriously bad teacher that there ever was ) , and far too busy being combative , and he loves to belittle / berate others , ( sadly mistaking it for piety and much zeal , )that doesn’t tow the line with him and his ” undisputable knowledge of scripture .” He obviously does NOT UNDERSTAND ( or even try to ) the Golden Rule ,much less the verse ” Come, let us reason together “. That’s why I have drawn the line in the sand with him and his absolutely horrid teaching, cult-like proselityseing , and his sloppy apologetics. Nothing personal with him, you or anyone else here or VD’s blog . I greatly appreciate you allowing me to have a say here . May

  10. jay c says:

    not wanting to give the Gospels to Jews because ” it’s hard to to convince knowledgeable Torah observant Jews that Jesus Christ was and is the Messiah . ” is outright lazy and lame .
    And you know that’s not what Mark said.
    ” keeping the Law” ,( which you also can’t do , or even attempting to keep Laws that you know you can’t do either,)
    I’m not sure what you mean by that. I don’t think God sits up in heaven wringing his hands over anything. I do, however, believe he wants us to keep his commandments. Whether or not I think I am able to keep them is irrelevant to what God wants. His standards are perfect even if I’m not.

  11. jay c says:

    The Golden Rule is an intrinsic part of the Torah. (See Lev 19:18.) Every single command that God gave to Israel is a direct outgrowth of the commands to love God and love each other. “On these two hang all of the law and the prophets.” The Father and the Son are one. Jesus said, “If you love me, keep my commandments,” because his commandments define what it is to love him.

  12. Fred X says:

    Mark, If you can dish it out, you ought to be able to take it.
    Shalom , y’all.

  13. Mark Call says:

    And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
    Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow Me.
    But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
    (Mat 19:16-22)
    ——————————–
    In the spirit of an open midrash, Fred, I’m going to try to respond directly to specifics.
    But a couple of things up front first.
    1) You have never — not once! – heard me make up a “condition for salvation” or add such to His Word! In fact, the reason I make such a repeated point of His undeniable admonition “If you love Me, keep My commands,” is the polar OPPOSITE of such. IF He has redeemed us by His Grace, IF we have no ability to redeem ourselves by “keeping the Law”, or “doing good works”, IF all of those things are “as [menstrual] rags” in comparison to what He has already done for us, how could He NOT be worthy or our love, our service, our obedience? How can we FAIL to fall on our knees before Him and say, “My Savior, my King, my Adonai, My Master! You will be done”, and pray to be counted worthy to serve Him and dwell in His House forever?
    In other words, having been saved by His grace, what is our “reasonable service“?
    He has already answered that question for us, I contend, and that is what I often emphasize. I started this post with the story of the rich young man for that reason.
    ‘Mark, If you can dish it out, you ought to be able to take it.’
    And you know that’s not what Mark said.

    2) And if you can ‘take it’, Fred, you by now must know that Jay is right, and that much, if not the great majority, of the rancor you have noted from me is because you refused to see, or admit to see, that there is this singular distinction I repeatedly try to make:
    What He said, and did, is NOT what some of ‘the church’ say He said. (II Tim. 4:1-5)
    Would to God ye could bear with me a little in [my] folly: and indeed bear with me…
    I use the term “Yeshua” very specifically in these case – to make it clear that the Savior who WAS the Torah made flesh should not be confused with “another Jesus”. (II Cor. 11:4)
    If anyone who “teaches others” to break ANY of

  14. Mark Call says:

    …even with the cuts, Haloscan got me…
    ———————————
    If anyone who “teaches others” to break ANY of His commandments, is called “least in the Kingdom of heaven”, what does that say about Him? (Matthew 5)
    Since He said that NOTHING will pass from His Torah “Till heaven and earth pass, and they obviously have NOT yet passed;
    since He IS “Torah made flesh”, and He “changes not”‘ (Mal. 3:6)
    — is He a liar? Of course not.
    I point out, over and over again, from Scripture, that this is the same distinction He made: He taught, “with Authority” what “was Written” — because He is “I AM“. “Torah” means far more than “Law”, or even “God’s Teaching and Understanding”. If I admit to failure in an explanation, to falling short of properly making any single, but overwhelmingly important, point clear, it is this one. John said it better than any:
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    The Same was in the beginning with God.
    All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
    (emphasis added)
    He IS “Torah made flesh”, Fred. He IS the “aleph-tov” (and there is a wonderful teaching in Beresheit 1 concerning that single amazing fact).
    ————————————

  15. Mark Call says:

    …the last part…
    ————————————-
    Where we may (or may not, with sufficient clarity) part company, Fred, is on what our Savior says we should do, if we love Him, and seek to call Him “lord”:
    And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? (Luke 6:46)
    If anyone was to say to me (again) 😉 “I’ve read your writings, and I understand your teaching. I know you,” but could not correctly summarize what I say, my answer would be “no, you don’t!”
    Yeshua’s statements are clear – and even more uncompromising:
    If anyone teaches someone to break “even the least” of His commandments, that person risks being “least in the kingdom” (Matt. 5:19). But even that is presumably better than hearing Him say, “I never knew you.” As I read it, He clearly says that calling Him “Lord” is not enough:
    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.
    (Matt. 7:21; emphasis added.) And then He again says that one must hear His Word, and “do them“. (Matt. 7:23-29)
    It was never about “works” versus faith (James 2); on that I hope we have never disagreed. But it IS important how we walk (halachah) that faith in Him.
    For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required.
    Shabbot shalom,

  16. Mark Call says:

    Later, if necessary I will address this in more detail, but this is enough for now:
    …the excuse of not wanting to give the Gospels to Jews because ” it’s hard to to convince knowledgeable Torah observant Jews that Jesus Christ was and is the Messiah . ” is outright lazy and lame…
    Those quote marks do not belong there, of course, Fred.
    But perhaps it’s already clear why:
    Since He IS the Torah made flesh, those who are preached “another Jesus, whom we have not preached“, and reject* that false teaching (whether they are jews or not), are doing exactly as both Moshe wrote and Yeshua reaffirmed.
    (Deut. 12:30-32, among others, and Deut. 13)
    The contrasting summary is in I John 4.
    ————————————-
    * Paul was a Benjaminite, and a consummate Torah scholar. He reasoned as such. But his ministry was to the gentiles, and he knew, and wrote of, “stumbling blocks”. The book of Galatians is also an excellent study, and helps to point out those distinctions.
    But, at the risk of oversimplification, anyone today who would attempt a ministry in essentially the “other direction” – to “jews” as opposed to “gentiles” – must likewise know their audience, and what would be a “stumbling block” to them.
    I can assure you, Fred — as one who HAS witnessed to many Torah-observant Jews — that the first objection most raise to what they have been told about ‘Christianity’ is that “Jesus could NOT have been the Messiah promised by Moshe because He ‘did away with Torah'”. The very next complaint is then the admonition from Deut. 13, because of what they see as obvious pagan ‘additions’ and service to “other gods, which ye have not known“.)
    The key I have found, and you have seen me write of, is to distinguish between a Yeshua of Nazareth (Whose Name they already know!) who came not to change “one yod or tittle” of Torah, from “another Jesus“.
    Distinguishing His Name, along with His teachings, from an ‘other name’ that they have already associated with false teaching, is in fact very helpful.
    Many are surprised at that distinction, and then hopefully seek to be like the Bereans, and search out the Truth for themselves.

  17. Triton says:

    Gee whiz. I’m out of the loop for a little while and I end up missing all the excitement.

  18. jay c says:

    We’re such party animals.

  19. Mark Call says:

    I had been kinda wondering at the silence from certain quarters… 😉

  20. Mark Call says:

    This is pretty good, so I figured it was worth reposting here, with a comment:
    You see, people will try to put conditions on your Salvation besides what our Lord and Saviour tells us, trying, whether they mean to or not, to put man’s conditions right up there with God’s . I do not agree with this because it attempts to put his Sovereign Grace through Faith equal to them, and some try to plant the seed of Doubt, ( Falling from Grace,for example .) instead of the Blessed Assurance that the LORD gives us through his Word,as well as his Mission unto us, which WAS Accomplished . None of us are righteous , No, not one . Except for The One, the Son of The Living God, who bore our iniquity on the Cross , and with belief that he KEEPS his promise unto us . For Faith in Him , is not believing that He can , but KNOWING that HE WILL . Any one telling you different is kidding themselves, and trying to kid you, Please don’t let that happen, please . Don’t let them set a stumbling block in your way , with intent or not, that will hinder you and your walk with Him. Trust in Jesus and him alone. He will not leave you nor forsake you, ever . This you can be assured of . – Fred X
    [ original comment — VP on 11.26.07 – 10:48 am | http://www.haloscan.com/comments/voxday/7726804328431551731/?a=34686#1949963%5D
    I wasn’t kidding in my intro, Fred.
    Whether you think myself of others (here or on VP) are trying to put man’s conditions right up there with God’s, understand that when it comes to salvation such is not the case. Indeed, I often quote Yeshua’s complaint against the Pharisees in Matt. 23 for that very reason (“they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne“); they “added to” His Word.
    The point, again, that I emphasize is decidely NOT that there is anything we can do to “earn” salvation.
    It’s about what we do AFTER our Redeemer has saved us, and we acknowledge Him as our King — in obedience, in faith that His Word is True, and He IS Who He says He IS.

  21. Fred X says:

    Greetings,Mark and Jay c ,
    I just got here. Please give me a minute to read all the posts upstairs .

  22. Fred X says:

    Every Tongue knows His Name , He answers to ” Jesus ” as well as the Hebrew Name, Mark . Believe you me , He listens to all prayers and praise, Honor, and the glory and the Glory given is His and His alone . After all, Chinese converts and such Cry unto him , and he hears them and they also know his voice , as For convincing Jewish people, you’ve got to be patient and long suffering with them, and to Help them through their Talmudic teachings on The Messiah . You have to keep them focused on the scripture and it alone , and Never, Ever get aggresive with them on anything , If they ask for the Gospel , give it to them . Ask the LORD to guide you , and he will. Trust me it works, especially with the young ones, who are usually cold to Torah, as well . Here your knowledge of Hebrew as well as Levitical Law can be used to FULL effect. The book of Hebrews comes into play well with the Torah Knowledged one , especially these two verses , I use the KJV :
    13:12 Wherefore Jesus ( Yeshua ) also, that HE might SANCTIFY by HIS BLOOD , ( softly emphasized, don’t spook the sheep, they will Bleat loudly and / or run away ) suffered ( outside) the gate ,
    13: LET US go forth WITHOUT THE CAMP, BEARING ALL REPROACH . ( once again, do not spook them .) This will get there attention big time do Not get into Midrash with these .

  23. Fred X says:

    And Job 20 : 25-29 works well with those of the non – observant persuasion too. All Jews know this story well. If you don’t let them tell YOU what it means . Let the LORD guide you , I promise he WILL show you how . I know this for a fact .
    How, you ask ?
    I am 50 years old and have been involved in a Interdenominational/ Interfaith Young Adult and teen outreach program for 15 years . And I have seen as well as helped a few people out, Giving the Gospels to those that have had experience with :
    Lost Sheep.
    Wounded Sheep.
    Beat mercilessly Sheep .
    Well-fleeced Sheep .
    Brainwashed Sheep .
    Broken Sheep .
    Nearly dead Sheep .
    What is missing here ?
    Fed sheep .
    Remember what THE LORD said :
    ” Feed my sheep ”
    Amen .

  24. Fred X says:

    Mark , I ask you to forgive me for my behaviour towards you sir . I just went off the hook when I heard Rood’s name . We are just about done cleaning TWI’s mess up down here , and I pray that he’s turned himself around, just watch him close . I didn’t mean to attack you for your Faith in God nor your personal walk with Him, not at all. Let us work and learn and help one another, not fruitless and vain arguments. It is what the LORD would have us do .
    Shalom.
    God richly bless you all here.

  25. Fred X says:

    I’m just as non-plussed with RCC as you are . Believe me on this .

  26. Mark Call says:

    Thanks, Fred, for the gracious words. You are certainly forgiven. May God grant you His blessings, and wisdom.

  27. Mark Call says:

    (And a brief PS, Fred. I really haven’t seen any evidence of TWI myself, over a period of half a decade or so. Thankfully, God has helped me to repent and be forgiven for the things I was guilty of not too many years ago… )

  28. Triton says:

    Well, golly, late again. I was just about to give Fred a dressing down for his crappy attitude, but he had to go and apologize. *sigh*
    Seriously, I’m glad you settled down a bit, Fred. You have some good points here and there, but they sort of got lost in all the hysteria. I disagree with Mark and Jay on a few things, but I still respect them as Christians and as gentlemen, and I hope you do, too.
    I certainly haven’t read all y’all’s voluminous text, but I don’t think y’all disagree on salvation. I think it’s sanctification, specifically what constitutes the proper behaviour of one who is already a believer, that is the sticking point. I think everyone here believes that salvation is by faith alone. Correct me if I’m wrong.
    If I’m right, then we can narrow the discussion to that, and leave out all the rest of the nonsense. Sound cool?

  29. Mark Call says:

    No argument on that score here, Triton, but you already knew that. 😉

  30. Fred X says:

    Agreed on this end , Triton.